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Saturday, November 15, 2008

CA Gays Bully Prop 8 Supporters, Part II

I doubt any group has ever showed their true colors quite so brightly and so childishly since the death of Journalism this year during the presidential election.

Please see CA Gays Bully Prop 8 Supporters - Changed this voters mind which explains why this issue has now become an "issue" for me on any future ballots. In the past I felt it wasn't really something I needed to vote on because whether or not marriage extended to gays was not something I fretted over. If they put it on the ballot and were granted the right... that was fine with me. If they put it on the ballot and it didn't go through... I was fine with that as well.

Now... well... now things are different. Let us look at some recent events that particularly have pushed me in this direction.

What Happens If You're on the Gay "Enemies List" - this is from Time.com.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which opponents say donated more than $20 million to the Yes on 8 campaign, has already become a focus of protests, with demonstrators gathered around Mormon temples not only in California but across the country.
African-Americans, 70% of whom voted yes on Proposition 8, according to a CNN exit poll, have become a target. According to eyewitness reports published on the Internet, racial epithets have been used against African-Americans at protests in California, directed even at blacks who are fighting to repeal Proposition 8. Said Evan Wolfson, executive director of Freedom to Marry, "In any fight, there will be people who say things they shouldn't say, but that shouldn't divert attention from what the vast majority are saying against this, that it's a terrible injustice.
In addition to protests, gay activists have begun publishing lists online exposing individuals and organizations who have donated money in support of Proposition 8. On AntiGayBlacklist.com, individuals who gave money toward Proposition 8 are publicized, with readers urged not to patronize their businesses or services. The list of donors was culled from data on ElectionTrack.com, which follows all contributions of over $1,000 and all contributions of over $100 given before October 17.
Meanwhile, lists of donors to Proposition 8, once trumpeted on the Yes on 8 Web site, have been taken down to protect individuals from harassment. "It's really awful," says Frank Schubert, campaign manager for Yes on Proposition 8. "No matter what you think of Proposition 8, we ought to respect people's right to participate in the political process. It strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights."
Let's look at that last part again...

"No matter what you think of Proposition 8, we ought to respect people's right to participate in the political process. It strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights."

Exactly what I meant when I posted: "Running around rioting when you lose and rioting when you win tells me you don't care about anyone ELSE'S rights... so why should I care about yours?"

That truly does seem to be the bottom line here. No matter where you stand on an issue, if it is on a public ballot to be voted on, then each person has the legal right to vote as they choose without fear of intimidation or harm.

Perhaps the activists should take aim at officials or laws that made it legal to put the measure on the ballot to begin with, instead of targeting people that fought for what they believed in.

Gay activists that are acting like children, stomping their feet and having a temper tantrum, vandalizing churches, publishing personal information about people that dared oppose your point of view, is nothing short of intimidation and should not be tolerated at all.

When judgments come down in favor of gay rights, gay activists like to proclaim loudly that it is the Democratic way, the people have spoken and all that jazz, yet when the people vote, by a majority, slim or not, and 52 percent IS a majority, against something those same activists do not agree with, they act like out of control little spoiled brats.

Guess what folks? Life isn't always fair and sometimes the majority of voters do not agree with a minority group, it happens, grow the hell up and deal with it and work harder next time to get your own proposals passed, but stop acting out and showing your own intolerance while proclaiming that others are intolerant of you.

That simply makes you look hypocritical.
I agree with this completely... these are the same types of thoughts I have been having regarding this issue. They are acting like spoiled brats. Instead of attacking the rights of other people, why not reorganize and try again?

I don't have a problem with protests or boycotts... that is everyone's right when they disagree with others. What I have a problem with is confronting those your protesting in such a way as to try to intimidate them and turn them to your side of the fence. If they don't agree with you... it's their right as American citizens.

The LA Times should be ashamed of their contribution to this issues. I am not linking but it can be found in the post linked above.
Proposition 8: The battle over gay marriage
About 52% of Californians voted yes on Proposition 8, a ballot initiative that alters the state Constitution to ban same-sex marriages. Use the Times interactive maps below to see how voters divided along geographic and demographic lines, as well as to compare the vote on Prop. 8 to other measures, including a nearly identical ban that passed by 61% in March 2000.
Not a big deal there... but right under this little bit of info is a way of tracking how people contributed either for or against Prop 8 by county, by city and by individual. You can go to this site and enter the name of the possible donor to see if they come up... or... you can just search all and 68,906 entries.

Then we have the New York Times article Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage.

In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.


To that end, the group that put the issue on the ballot rebuffed efforts by some groups to include a ban on domestic partnership rights, which are granted in California. Mr. Schubert cautioned his side not to stage protests and risk alienating voters when same-sex marriages began being performed in June.

“We could not have this as a battle between people of faith and the gays,” Mr. Schubert said. “That was a losing formula.”

But the “Yes” side also initially faced apathy from middle-of-the-road California voters who were largely unconcerned about same-sex marriage. The overall sense of the voters in the beginning of the campaign, Mr. Schubert said, was “Who cares? I’m not gay.”


The “Yes” campaign was denounced by opponents as dishonest and divisive, but the passage of Proposition 8 has led to second-guessing about the “No” campaign, too, as well as talk about a possible ballot measure to repeal the ban. Several legal challenges have been filed, and the question of the legality of the same-sex marriages performed from June to Election Day could also be settled in court.

For his part, Mr. Schubert said he is neither anti-gay — his sister is a lesbian — nor happy that some same-sex couples’ marriages are now in question. But, he said, he has no regrets about his campaign.


Mr. Otterson said it was too early to tell what the long-term implications might be for the church, but in any case, he added, none of that factored into the decision by church leaders to order a march into battle. “They felt there was only one way we could stand on such a fundamental moral issue, and they took that stand,” he said. “It was a matter of standing up for what the church believes is right.”

That said, the extent of the protests has taken many Mormons by surprise. On Friday, the church’s leadership took the unusual step of issuing a statement calling for “respect” and “civility” in the aftermath of the vote.

“Attacks on churches and intimidation of people of faith have no place in civil discourse over controversial issues,” the statement said. “People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal.”

Mr. Ashton described the protests by same-sex marriage advocates as off-putting. “I think that shows colors,” Mr. Ashton said. “By their fruit, ye shall know them.”

I understand that this is an interesting fact to this campaign... that Mormons contributed half and that they may be one of the big factors to the "yes" victory. Most of the protests have gone towards individuals or organizations that the protesters know won't retaliate. When was the last time anyone heard of a Mormon getting into a fist fight. Oh... I'm sure it happens, but it's fairly rare and if it does happen... the entire universe hears about it.

It shows that these protesters are willing to attack those they know will not react in a violent manner. Instead, they will be prayed for or just smiled at and told that god loves them. Again... I don't see a problem with protesters with picket signs outside Mormon temples... I see a problem with people burning books of the Mormon faith or attempting any other type of intimidation to bring about a feeling of threat or a real threat for future voting.

Book of Mormon set ablaze on church door step - although I would like to point out that there's no proof that this incident was due to Prop 8... it does seem awfully coincidental, doesn't it.

LITTLETON, Colo. (AP)- A fire outside a Mormon church in Littleton is being investigated as a bias-motivated arson that may have stemmed from the church's position on a gay marriage amendment in California.

Arapahoe County sheriff's deputies responded to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about 7:15 p.m. Tuesday, some three hours after a church member found a burning copy of The Book of Mormon on a door step.

No damage to the church was reported.

The caller who reported the fire told authorities that an LDS regional facilities manager indicated the incident may have been in retaliation to the church's stance on Proposition 8.

The measure passed last week bans same-sex marriage in the California constitution.
FBI: Powder sent to Mormon headquarters nontoxic

SALT LAKE CITY – The FBI says the white powder that spilled onto a mail clerk's hand at the Utah headquarters of the Mormon church is nontoxic.

FBI spokesman Juan T. Becerra said Friday that tests came back negative. The powder was in an envelope opened Thursday that was sent to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City.

Another letter with a suspicious powder arrived Thursday at a Mormon temple in Los Angeles. It also has been determined to be nontoxic.

The temples were the sites of recent protests against the church's support for California's gay marriage ban.

Becerra says the FBI is still investigating both cases.

Gee... these incidents make me want to give marriage rights to gays. I mean, if they can be so responsible as to threaten organizations with scare tactics then surely they can deal with the greater aspects of marriage... like individual freedoms of expression, caring for each other no matter what, loving unconditionally... you know... the stupid parts of marriage.

Confirmed: Huge Obama Surge Sealed Prop 8 Victory - check out this article which has some interesting facts on the way Obama supporters voted for Prop 8!!! See link below as well.

Dan Walters: Surge for Obama sealed Prop. 8's victory - Seems there's a large percentage of voters who voted YES for Obama and YES for Prop 8.

To put it another way, had Obama not been so popular and had voter turnout been more traditional – meaning the proportion of white voters had been higher – chances are fairly strong that Proposition 8 would have failed.

Some gay rights leaders have been bitter that voters from two ethnic groups that have experienced discrimination should vote so strongly to deny gays the right to marry. But they could take solace from the statistical probability that in an election with less excitement and a lower turnout, they'd probably prevail.

Schwarzenegger: Proposition 8 fight isn't over - wants CA Supreme Court to overturn

As protesters took to the streets for a fifth day, Governor Arnold
Schwarzenegger yesterday expressed hope that the California Supreme Court would
overturn Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that outlawed same-sex marriage.

Barrack Obama on Gay Marriage - Click here to watch the VIDEO of Obama during an interview wherein he states the following.

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that's not what America's about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them."

In other words... he is not in favor of gay marriage but he is in favor of it. I'm confused.

Prop 8 is proving that the issue of gay marriage is not Republican vs. Democrat or Conservative vs. Liberal or even Right vs. Left (see Schwarzenegger vs. Obama above). It isn't about black vs. white vs. Latino or any other ethnic background... many whites didn't care one way or the other and it turns out many blacks and Latinos did care.

The outcome of this issue in California proves that we as Americans have views about issues important to us that have NOTHING to do with our political background, heritage, race, gender, etc. etc. It has everything to do with what an individual believes in or feels is important!!

This is a free country and we decide based on many different factors... this issue proves that there are still some people who are making choices based primarily on what they believe... not what the masses pressure them into thinking.

Now... based on that and based on what the protesters are doing, like disrupting church services, confronting voters, setting fires, targeting those who will silently do nothing... it seems clear that they are in favor of making it public knowledge of how a voter votes; unless of course, it does not favor them. I make that last little comment based entirely on how they're acting... forcing your rights on people by taking the rights of others away or somehow disrupting those rights only proves that you're "in it" only for yourself!

Question: Since they're protesting Catholics and Mormons... why not Muslims?

I was doing a little research and came across this page.
What is forbidden in Islam- Homosexuality or practicing Homosexuality?
The common concept for Muslim homosexuals is to commit suicide since they can't be punished for being homosexuals in a non-Islamic state, but two wrongs don't make one right. While homosexuality is wrong, it doesn't justify suicide under any conditions or circumstances. Please know that if you ever commit suicide, you would have seriously misunderstood Islam and its spirit.

Please look at that last sentence...
Please know that if you ever commit suicide, you would have seriously misunderstood Islam and its spirit.

I'm sure it wasn't meant to imply that a person could commit suicide and then read this article... but it sure sounds that way.

Anyway... back to my original question... why not protest Muslim voters who voted YES on Prop 8?

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May we each take the moment necessary out of this day and any day we feel the need to remember those who have gone before us in defense of our freedoms. Without them... we would not be "here"... we would be in chains. ~Bug~